Sunday, 8 January 2017

Doctrine - prophecies, dreams and visions



“Gifted” prophets and dreamers

An OAC member wrote: “…The Old Apostolic Church is build on this foundation of “spiritual gifts”. All matters are decided on it. Apostles are chosen based on visions, prophecies and dreams…”

“…Just like the early Gnostics, the Old Apostolic Church belief in revelations through visions, dreams and prophecies…”

“…In 1972 the aged and sick Apostle Robert Lombard of the Old Apostolic Church received, according to his believers some revelations that the church must defy the Government and support the Anti-Apartheid movement…”

Robert William Lombard

In 1948 the South African Government adopted apartheid and the OAC complied by the racial segregation of their communities. For many years the non-white members complained of racial inequality.

Robert William Lombard was ordained on May 11th, 1958 as an “apostle” of the OAC to serve non-white communities. He was ordained by “apostle” William Campbell in the Maitland Town Hall, Cape Town. 11 days later, “apostle” William Campbell died. In 1971 “apostle” Robert William Lombard received a “gift” (revelation). He claimed that Jesus spoke to him and told him to go and free his people. As a result of this, there was a dispute between him and the OAC leadership. On January 21st, 1972, “apostle” Robert William Lombard was excommunicated from the OAC and started his own church (Non-white Old Apostolic Church).

The leadership of the OAC made submissions to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, a court-like restorative justice body assembled in South Africa after the abolition of apartheid in 1994. The details of these submissions have not been made public. Shortly before the abolition of apartheid there were questionable changes made to the format for the serving of the sacrament of “avondmaal” (Communion) in 1993. In anticipation of the fall of apartheid and the inevitable possibility of white and black lips drinking from the same cup, the apostolate changed the sacrament. Instead of a shared cup, a pair of tweezers would be used to dip the matzo into the cup before being placed into a member’s hand. Before this change, the officer would place the matzo in your hand after which you would take a sip from a shared cup.

An OAC member commented on a photo of “apostles” Masencamp, Lombard and Ninow: “...Apostle Ninow was ordained two days after the death of Apostle Masencamp. But due to the Prophet, Gpd made it known that Ap. Masencamp will leave the flesh. Therefore why Ap Ninow is with hom on tje photo. This is proof of the power of the Prophet in the church...” 

An Ex-OAC member wrote: “...Prophets – responsible for all Prophetic Gifts dreams and vision...”

“...a few members or officers may be seized with the urge to Prophesy. This will be a short speech – after each prophecy the Presiding Officer will say “Amen”. After a few Prophesies (usually three or four) the Presiding officer will continue with his prayer ending with Amen. After a few more prophesies and one more hymn the congregation is told to sit and the sermon commences...”

“...After around 45 to 50 minutes the service is concluded with a hymn, perhaps a prophecy or two and the Benediction...”

A non-OAC member wrote: “…Een oom nooi die kinders om hulle drome aan die huis priesteres mee te deel. (Dis nou die mamma) Dan sal sy dit met die profeet deel. Hy sal dan die droom uitlê en die kinders moet dink hoe trots gaan die huispriester en priesteres wees as die profeet Sondag in die kerk daardie droom vir almal uitlê. Daar was toe ‘n nuwe profeet voorgestel.…”
For those of you who don’t understand Afrikaans, this person is saying that “...One uncle invites the children to share their dreams with the house priestess. (That’s now the mommy) Then she will share it with the prophet. He will then interpret the dream and the children must think how proud the housepriest and priestess will be if the prophet on Sunday interprets the dream for everyone. Then there was a new prophet introduced...”

OAC members are instructed to write down their dreams as soon as they wake up. These are considered to be “gifts” and given to their “priest”. The “priest” will read it and determine if it pertains to the member who gave it to him or someone else in the community. If the “gift” is not meant for the community, it goes to the “elder” who will determine if the gift applies to the “eldership” which consists of several communities. If the “gift” is not meant for the “eldership”, it goes to the “prophet” who will determine if it applies to the “overseership” which consists of several “elderships”. In this manner a “gift” can eventually end up with the “apostle”.

In the back of each church hall there are pens and paper for writing down visions. These are basically like dreams you imagine while you’re awake and these are also considered to be “gifts”. Visions are treated in the same way as dreams. These “gifts” travel up and down “Jacob’s ladder”, the “gifts” go “up” to the “apostle” and the “apostle” reciprocates by dispensing “teaching” based on the “gifts” he receives.

Prophecies are like prayers said out loud during a service; specific time is allocated for this before the main sermon. Members are encouraged to just open their mouths and start speaking because the “spirit” will place the words on their tongues.

Depending on the context of a dream or vision, the following symbolism is used for interpretation (these are just a few examples):
  • Colours could indicate the various offices of the ministry.
  • Gold usually means love because it becomes purified and softer through fire.
  • Silver usually means truth because it becomes purified through fire and you can see your image in it.
  • Circle or ring usually means eternity because a circle has no beginning or end.
  • Death usually means rebirth because a seed must first die before a tree can grow.
  • Woman usually means a soul or a church.
  • Man usually means “gift” or sower of the seed because it’s the word that “impregnates” the mind.
  • Mountain usually means the church.
  • Water usually means words being preached. There are 3 “streams”; prophetic, shepherd and evangelistic. There's another view that there are 4 "streams"; apostle, prophet, evangelist and overseer.
  • Lion usually means “apostle” because he is supposedly the lion of Judah or the first beast in Revelation 4:7.
  • Calf usually means “overseer” or the shepherd stream because of his “tender” association with the community and is supposedly the second beast in Revelation 4:7.
  • Face of a man usually means the “evangelist” or evangelical stream because he is the face to the world and supposedly the third beast in Revelation 4:7.
  • Eagle usually means the “prophet” or prophetic stream because he is able to see far ahead and supposedly the fourth beast in Revelation 4:7.
  • Donkey or mule usually means the flesh of the OAC member because they supposedly carry the “gift” of Christ. The sinful flesh of the OAC member is supposedly Jesus.
  • Bones or skeleton usually mean the order of the OAC. Not following the OAC order is considered to be breaking the bones of the lamb.
  • Sun usually means the “apostle” because his “light” can blind the “world”.
  • Moon usually means the “evangelist” or evangelist stream which includes the “underdeacon” because they reflect the “light” of the sun to the “world”.
  • Stars usually mean the members of the OAC because individually they’re little suns in the image of their “apostle”.
  • Earth or ground usually means the “world” i.e. mind of a man or people who aren’t members of the OAC.

You can read more of how some of these symbols are interpreted “spiritually”:

OAC members claim their church is built on the foundation of the apostle and prophet. Let’s take a brief historical look at some of the apostles and prophets which formed the foundation of the OAC.

Edward Irving, a minister in the Church of Scotland, preached in his church at Regent Square in London on the speedy return of Jesus Christ. He earnestly preached that the end of the world was nigh and that the church had sinned grievously by not instituting all the “posts” as he understood them in Ephesians 4:11. Edward Irving pleaded for the immediate introduction of the apostolate so that the “apostle” designate could “seal” the believers for salvation.

In 1826 Edward Irving became associated with the Albury conferences at his friend Henry Drummond’s estate in Surrey, Albury Park. Henry Drummond was a wealthy London banker and Member of Parliament and these conferences were concerned with unfulfilled prophecy and followed by study of the prophetical books and the apocalypse.

Edward Irving wrote and published a book, Babylon and Infidelity foredoomed - A Discourse on the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse which relate to these latter times, and until the Second Advent (1826, 2nd edition 1828). C. H. Spurgeon described the book as “More of rolling sound than anything else”.

Edward Irving proclaimed that the events in France and beyond were clearly predicted in the book of Revelation and in Daniel (Irving, Babylon, 1:191–93, 218–26, 233–34, 240–41; 2:11–35). He also expected that Christ would return soon and set up an earthly Millennium (Irving, Babylon, 1:32, 192, 205–206; 2:8, 138–47, 155–56). Indeed, he even went as far as to say that he expected the Jews to return to Palestine by 1847 (Irving, Babylon, 2:225–28) and that Christ would come back by 1868 (Irving, Babylon, 1:173–75, 2:152, 218–19).

Below are a few of the false prophecies from his book, The last days: a discourse on the evil character of these our times, providing them to be the "perilous times" of the "last days":

“...The times and the fullness of the times, so often mentioned in the New Testament, I consider as referring to the great period numbered by times; the days, to the thirty and the forty-five days by which the course of the Lord’s purposes overwent the three times and a half. Of these days, I should consider the forty-five days to be the last of the days in which these great events are to be revealed. Now, if this reasoning be correct, as there can be little doubt that the one thousand two hundred and sixty days concluded in the year 1792, and the thirty additional days in the year 1823, we are already entered upon the last days, and the ordinary life of a man will carry many of us to the end of them....” – Edward Irving, page 21

“...Now, in all the vision the Jewish people are not once mentioned till xii. 1, when they are delivered immediately upon the fall of Anti-christ, which is not yet happened, and is, as we believe, just about to arrive....” – Edward Irving, page 22

“...I consider it, therefore, to be clear, from the book of Daniel, that the latter days do signify the time at which the Jewish people shall enter into the long promised and long delayed kingdom, after the four Gentile monarchies shall have been brought to an end by the Stone of Israel, which is to come out of Joseph–at which time the characteristic predictions of Jacob shall begin to have their accomplishment....” – Edward Irving, page 23

Edward Irving wrote and published several books; last mentioned book can be downloaded here: https://archive.org/details/lastdaysdiscours00irviuoft. Edward Irving was the leader of the church out of which the Catholic Apostolic Church emerged.

Edward Irving’s lectures on the Second Advent inspired Henry Drummond, a wealthy banker and Member of Parliament, to start a series of conferences on the interpretation of biblical prophecy. In 1826 Henry Drummond invited about 30 clergymen and laymen for a conference in Albury Park, in order to clear various interpretations of prophecies concerning the apocalypse under the influence of prayer and Bible study. Edward Irving was also invited. The focus of these revelations was the imminent return of Jesus Christ.

At a prayer meeting in 1832, Henry Drummond named Advocate John Bate Cardale as an “apostle”. Advocate John Bate Cardale was recognized as the first “living apostle” of the movement and he in turn ordained Henry Drummond as the “angel” of the group.

In 1833 Henry Drummond became the second "living apostle" and was later assigned responsibility for Scotland and Switzerland. Edward Irving succeeded Henry Drummond as ʺangelʺ of the church. Within 2 years their “prophets” had called 12 “living apostles”.

After a long period of combined preparation, these “apostles” started to travel around the world. During 1837 and 1838, they undertook missionary journeys to mainland Europe, Canada, and the USA. The main point of their gospel was that the Church had deviated from its origins and only through restoring the “Universal Church” to its perfect state could the return of Christ be ensured.

The end of the church's “prophetical” element was underlined by the adoption in 1843 of an elaborate new liturgy.

After the death of 3 “apostles” in 1855 the “apostolate” declared that there was no reason to call new “apostles”.

During a meeting at Albury in 1860, the German “prophet” Heinrich Geyer called 2 “evangelists” to be “apostles”. After deliberation, the “apostles” rejected this calling and affirmed that no further callings to the apostolate would be accepted.

On October 10th, 1862, Heinrich Geyer called Rudolf Rosochacki to be an “apostle” while staying in his home. On January 4th, 1863, most of the Hamburg congregation accepted the calling of Rudolf Rosochacki to the “apostolate”. A few days later “apostle” Rudolf Rosochacki became doubtful of the divine origin of his calling as an “apostle” after meeting with some of the other “apostles”. After a few weeks Rudolf Rosochacki receded.

On January 26th, 1863 “angel” Friedrich Wilhelm Schwartz met with “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse in Berlin and expressed his belief in the need to continue the “apostle” ministry. On February 6th, 1863 “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse informed the Hamburg congregation in writing of its expulsion from the Catholic Apostolic Church.

When their “apostles” started dying out they decided to change their expectation of the future. From then on they began to hope in the imminent rapture of the congregation they had already gathered.

After its expulsion in writing from the Catholic Apostolic Church by “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse (February 6th, 1863), the Hamburg congregation along with “prophet” Heinrich Geyer, split off to form the Allgemeine Apostolische Mission in 1863. This is commonly known as the "Hamburg Schism".

On April 12th, 1863, a “deacon” called “priest” Carl Wilhelm Louis Preuss as an “apostle” which was confirmed by “prophet” Heinrich Geyer. On May 25th, 1863, Friedrich Wilhelm Schwartz was also called as an “apostle”.

Thus the German "apostles" started from scratch in much the same way as the Albury “apostles” did.

Heinrich Geyer the “prophet” called Johannes F.L. Güldner as an “apostle” and successor of “apostle” Carl Wilhelm Louis Preuss in a service on August 4th, 1878. When Johannes F.L. Güldner was to be ordained, some members including Friedrich Krebs objected. The majority of the Hamburg congregation also protested, so “elder” Wichmann stepped up to the altar and relieved “prophet” Heinrich Geyer from his ministry. Wichmann told “prophet” Heinrich Geyer that he had to leave, so “prophet” Heinrich Geyer left the church with 300 of his followers. Heinrich Geyer founded a new congregation in Hamburg named Apostolische Mission. His congregation eventually wasted away after his death in 1896.

The “apostle” Friedrich Krebs in his quest for the “Unity of the apostles” abolished the callings by mouth of the “prophets” and declared the office of “prophet” redundant, for “apostle” Friedrich Krebs would from then on appoint the most important ministers himself.

The new congregations referred to themselves as “new apostolic congregations” to distinguish themselves from the first “apostolic congregations” of the Catholic Apostolic Church. This is how the New Apostolic Church came to be.

The Old Apostolic Church split off from the New Apostolic Church. Apparently Carl Klibbe named his church “Old Apostolic” because he claimed to be dedicated to the “original doctrine”.
A tree is known by its fruit, false prophets are known by their false prophecies.

Not all dreams or visions are true simply because people claim their so-called “gifts” are from God (Jeremiah 23:31-32, Jeremiah 29:8-9, Zechariah 10:2).

Someone who was formally involved in the occult wrote the following: “...When I was involved with the occult, I could say the same thing about visions and dreams coming true. That is not proof they are from God...”

You can read more here:



False prophets can also perform wonders prophets can also perform wonders and lie in God’s name (Deuteronomy 13:1-3, Jeremiah 23:25-32). Wicked and unsaved people can also receive “gifts” from God (Daniel 2:1, Daniel 4:4-5, Matthew 27:19).

Matthew 24:23-28 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

You can read about the true apostles and prophets in the Bible. There is only one REAL Jesus and He is the ONLY Messiah.